LÖVE

Taehl wrote:We agree, then? Excellent. I was afraid you guys were going to aim for a lame fan remake of an old game, without any considerations towards what fundamental changes could improve it. I'll have to keep an eye on this, then.

Taehl wrote:True, I hadn't considered that angle. In that case, yes, it could be a decent compromise. However, there are a few more options than you may be aware of:
- Huge world, all made by hand (WoW, Morrowind) (Too much work for an indie team.)

Taehl wrote:- Small world, all made by hand (most older games) (Players may no be satisfied.)

Taehl wrote: - Small world with different locales, all made by hand (most games nowadays) (The method you suggest. It's a compromise between the first two.)

Taehl wrote: - Huge, procedurally-generated world (Diablo) (These tend to get boring and repetitive.)

Taehl wrote: Or...
- Small handmade areas on top of huge procedural world (Subversion (WIP))

I'd highly recommend considering this last method. It combines the best of each option, and modern computers have the power to pull it off. In brief, the developers make some areas by hand (say, a castle), and the game will generate everything else (the forest around the castle). The boundaries don't even need to be so clear-cut: You could put in little handmade details around in the procedural forest, like a meadow or an abandoned farm. This way you can potentially have a huge world for a lot less work than normal. Even better, procedurally-generated content won't increase the size of the game's files, since it's not stored.

napco wrote:I agree also with leaving the most of the calculations to the computer, but we need to keep some, or the player will get lost and won't know how to modify his tactics. (eg: damage visualization, and maybe HP).

kikito wrote:

- Small handmade areas on top of huge procedural world

I'd love to see something like this happening ... but beware! There are difficulties on this approach, too. To a degree, this is what Spelunky does (randomly generated levels that use "bigger pieces" of scenery done by hand, like temples). Some time ago Shamus Young posted how he would have used that same approach for creating Tamriel (the world in Oblivion). Then I found this other guy that I don't know (Mike Rozak) that says it is actually implemented that way (sorry, google cache, the actual page seems to be down)

Dwarf Fortress is an example of the "completely random" category, but its worlds are reasonably interesting. The cost is that you need very simple rules, but in great numbers - on that game you can literally "pierce the pancreas of an orc", so somewhere there's a group of rules specifying what happens when an orc's pancreas is pierced. With so many simple, interacting rules, interesting behaviour emerges. But it is long and tiresome to write so many!

Also, procedurally-generated worlds need a nice variety of assets in order to look good - i.e. for people you would need a big set of faces, body parts and clothes. Different kind of houses, trees, animals and floor tiles. A fine example of the sheer difficulty of creating so many assets is Dwarf Fortress itself - they overcame this problem by making it "text-mode-like".

Suggestion for creating the assets: some kind of community effort. Start with a flexible file spec, build a nice editor around it (maybe with a website), and have people contribute and rate others. Otherwise, who is going to draw 50 tsirts in 10 positions, from 4 angles?

kikito wrote: Also, procedurally-generated worlds need a nice variety of assets in order to look good - i.e. for people you would need a big set of faces, body parts and clothes. Different kind of houses, trees, animals and floor tiles. A fine example of the sheer difficulty of creating so many assets is Dwarf Fortress itself - they overcame this problem by making it "text-mode-like".

Suggestion for creating the assets: some kind of community effort. Start with a flexible file spec, build a nice editor around it (maybe with a website), and have people contribute and rate others. Otherwise, who is going to draw 50 tsirts in 10 positions, from 4 angles?

-- Returns the closest multiple of size (defaulting to game.grid)
math.grid = function(n, size) size = size or game.grid return math.round(n/size)*size end
-- Randomly returns either -1 or 1
math.rsign = function() return math.random(0,1)*2-1 end

function love.load()
	math.randomseed(31337)									-- This number changes the randomization of the world
	local edge = 1200										-- The size of the empty border, in pixels
	game.grid, game.x, game.y = 30, 3600+edge, 3600+edge			-- 3600 is pretty big.

	local function grow(x, y, limit, iteration)
		iteration = (iteration or 0) + 1
		addtile(x, y)
		if math.rsign() == 1 then x = x + math.rsign()*game.grid
		else y = y + math.rsign()*game.grid end
		if iteration < limit then grow(x, y, limit, iteration) end		-- Yay recursion!
	end

	for i = 1, 320 do
		local x = math.grid(math.random(edge,game.x-edge))
		local y = math.grid(math.random(edge,game.y-edge))
		grow(x, y, 10)										-- 320*10 = up to 3200 tiles
	end
end

-- Adds a static tile.
function addtile( x, y )
	if tiles[x] then if tiles[x][y] then return false end end				-- Don't overlap tiles
	local t = {}
	t.x, t.y = x, y
	t.b = ground
	t.s = love.physics.newRectangleShape(t.b, x, y, game.grid, game.grid)
	t.i = image("block")
	t.ox, t.oy = 16, 16
	t.sx, t.sy = (game.grid+2)/32, (game.grid+2)/32
	t.r = (math.random(0,4)*math.halfpi) + (math.random(-5,10)^4/40000 * math.rsign())
	t.s:setData(t)
	if not tiles[x] then tiles[x] = {} end
	tiles[x][y] = t
end

osuf oboys wrote:I like this community project but right now it sounds more like grand dreams that will most likely run into the sand (as such projects, even starting much closer to the finish line, tend to do). How about making a 5-minute RPG before setting out to make "the grandest RPG ever made".

osuf oboys wrote:I like this community project but right now it sounds more like grand dreams that will most likely run into the sand (as such projects, even starting much closer to the finish line, tend to do). How about making a 5-minute RPG before setting out to make "the grandest RPG ever made".

osuf oboys wrote:Alternativly, one could work hierarchically: making a game (/writing a story) constrained in size, or at least the important hand-made parts of it, and increasing the length. One could start with a single scene that captures the essence of the story and iteratively, say, double or triple the length, eventually adding optional side quests for those players that enjoy side tours. In the end, things would have taken at most twice the time (for doubling) or 50% longer (for tripling), but probably resulting in a much more well-made game. You will also always have an end-product, even if you choose to abandon the project. My experiences with prototyping in programming also indicates that this makes you work out the most important features properly and gets rid of most of the backtracking, which can be very time consuming.

I believe this project would benefit the community a lot more if the underlying RPG engine and the RPG story were made into separate projects developed in parallel. A lot of people have attempted RPGs in LÖVE and worked to a great deal on those elements largely common in RPGs, in one form or another.

osuf oboys wrote:I can assist with the procedural generation if you need that. What kind of generated content are you looking for besides maps? One design choice is if the procedural generation should be run first and content added afterwards (much easier) or the content requirements first and generation around that (more powerful, less static, (uses less space)). E.g. first generating the world and editing the tiles to add, say, houses, versus being able to say where houses should be and adding the world around them in a consistent manner.

Robin wrote:

osuf oboys wrote:I like this community project but right now it sounds more like grand dreams that will most likely run into the sand (as such projects, even starting much closer to the finish line, tend to do). How about making a 5-minute RPG before setting out to make "the grandest RPG ever made".

I agree. I have been watching this thread, and it's really nice to see people so enthusiastic. But try to keep it real, or you only set up to disappoint yourselves. If/when you produce something playable, you can count on me to test it (and most likely to report bugs as well).

And one final advice: forget what I said about keeping it real. Overly optimistic and ambitious dreams are half the fun of projects like this!