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raidho36 wrote:I think we're already been there and thought this analogy isn't entirely valid as in you can't learn good programming just by programming a lot, you're more likely to get used to code the ineffecient silly way if you're lucky and in an atrociously horrible way otherwise.

And, like before, I still don't agree with you entirely. Sure, you can't just go on experience, but how would you even figure out the syntax by trial-and-error?

I do think the painting analogy works out, because it is about painting watermelons when there's only tutorials about cats, if you know how to paint (for example, from that cat tutorial), and you know what a watermelon is well enough, you can then paint a watermelon. Sure, it might be a bit weird, or just end up being a giant grape, but at least next time you know what went wrong, and you'll get closer to your lovely watermelon.

I'd like to note it also addresses raidho's point, in saying "you know what a watermelon is", because yes, obviously you can't just paint a watermelon without ever having seen one.

Well, this part about watermelons was spot-on, too, I haven't mentioned that. It is very important to be able to figure solutions having little to no ready-to-use material.

bartbes wrote:I'd like to note it also addresses raidho's point, in saying "you know what a watermelon is", because yes, obviously you can't just paint a watermelon without ever having seen one.

There is a ton of trial and error as well as a trail of discarded partial attempts along the road to any innovation. The reason is exactly what bartbes posted above: if you haven't seen one, painting one can be difficult.

In further response to the main topic, 17 years ago I gave up on a project that I've attempted to restart every so many years, this thread, along with my current Snapshot project, has prompted me to at least reopen the topic of the project in these forums to see if someone has some ideas to contribute, some direction to provide, a ray of sunshine piercing a cloud of darkness, a glimmer of hope to the... well you get the idea

I liked Santos's analogy. But BartBes, are you saying you can't learn a languages syntax from Trail-and-error?? If so, that that isn't 100% true. I learned 70% of Lua through trial-and-error, then experimented with some concepts that I saw(e.g. metatables. I spent a good hour or so just testing what was possible with them). The only thing I can't wrap my head around is pairs and ipairs. Still messing with them

I didn't see what Raidho wrote other than from what was quoted, and I don't intend to know .

Santos's analogy was kind of off, but I saw his point: There is only so much someone can teach you, so mess around with stuff yourself and learn that way.

Trying to learn a language's entire syntax through trial-and-error is madness. You need at the very least read about the basic syntax before you try writing code. Otherwise you have no clue what keywords and language constructs are even available.

That's true. But you can learn a bit of the language through trial-and-error. I had the basics of Lua when trying to code it, but I learned more from doing stuff myself then from PiL(which sucks IMO)

Eamonn wrote:But you can learn a bit of the language through trial-and-error.

I was saying you can't learn all of it that way.

Eamonn wrote:PiL(which sucks IMO)

Heresy! Burn the non-believer!

> I learned 70% of Lua through trial-and-error
Well that explains a lot.
> PiL(which sucks IMO)
Oh my god. No. Just no.

I'm not going to comment on what Raidho said, because it wasn't on topic. The reason I don't like PiL is because it doesn't explain things well. It's too hard to understand.

To Raidho: Only comment if you have a project that you had to give up on, don't insult anyone. Have you got something against me? Did I ever say something to upset you? I'm fed up with all the discouragement and insults that you've given me. I've been tolerant thus far, but it's starting to get on my nerves. I've learned to just ignore all the negative stuff you say(which is 90% of the stuff you say to me(other than on 1 particular post, when you helped me)). So if you have something against me or if I said something to anger/upset you, I'd like to hear it.

So, anyone else wanna share a story?

PiL is a great resource for people who already know how to program quite well and want to learn Lua. For people who want to learn both programming and Lua at the same time, it's pretty much a waste of time. The book assumes you're already a competent programmer.