A Community-Culture Problem With Library Names

[Inny]

People are actually using the community libraries?

[NightKawata]

So what if the library names are "dirty?" It doesn't make them any less useful, and if you've got a problem with it, this is the real world: In the words of Karai, grow up.

It's a little bit of innuendo, God help you if you can't deal with it and feel the need to bash a community that doesn't have so many problems with it. Yes, you have a point. Yes, you're entitled to your own opinion. But what does it matter? It's all in the name of LÖVE. Everyone's got their own style, and whether or not you agree with it is a different story.

It's also not exactly a community problem, moreover a "One man has problems with a bit of innuendo" problem.
If you don't like it, don't use it. That's all I can really say.

People are actually using the community libraries?

Spot on.

[ejmr]

Grow up.

I will be thirty in a few months, but I am assume this is instead the typical Internet forum attack on my personal maturity—right?

If you're unreasonably uncomfortable with innuendo, then maybe associating with humans isn't for you.

I thought it was funny that you say this and then in the very next sentence call this a “friendly community.” I agree the community is very friendly, but your suggestion that maybe I associating with humans isn’t for me….

If you feel so strongly that words should be banned…

I never said ban anything.

So what if the library names are "dirty?" It doesn't make them any less useful.

It does make them less useful, because they become un-usable in a lot of professional situations. I am not saying this as any type of personal attack but as a genuine question: of the people telling me to grow up, do you or have you worked professionally as a programmer? If so, how many situations have you been in where you would be comfortable suggesting to your team-leads, managers, etc., to use libraries with sexually-charged names? Again, serious question.

God help you if you can't deal with it and feel the need to bash a community that doesn't have so many problems with it. Yes, you have a point. Yes, you're entitled to your own opinion. But what does it matter?

It matters because I have a point?

It's also not exactly a community problem, moreover a "One man has problems with a bit of innuendo" problem.

I’m not the only one in the thread to echo the sentiments regarding the library names.

[OttoRobba]

Controversial.

I don't personally mind the names (heck, I even made a silly one myself) but it can make LÖVE a hard sell to some other developers and for usage within companies.

When I look at it from the viewpoint of an educator, it is also complicated:
Do I go with it because I personally don't mind it or do I go with something else, because the students might?
What is more important, immature jokes (seriously, is a 'cock' library funny?) or acessibility?
When in doubt, I always opt for accessibility.

I have nothing against funny names - but crude is seldom funny in a more professional context.

I personally like how Kikito names his libraries:
"anim8" tells a lot more about animation than "AnAl"
"MiddleClass" tells a lot more about classes than "SECS"

I know that, at the end of the day, the lewd names are unlikely to change. Just thought I'd weight in because there is no need to diss the OP; He does have a point, like it or not, as this does affect the public reception of LÖVE.

[Daniel Eakins]

In my opinion, the single biggest thing that could be done to alleviate this situation would be to remove all innuendo libraries from the "libraries" section of the wiki.

I strongly disagree. A lot of those libraries in question are very useful, And making them less accessible/harder to find for users won't benefit anyone.

Do the developers of those libraries actually care about those libraries being accessible/easy to find?

If so, are they aware that those libraries can already be difficult to find, depending on the firewalls applied on the network of the users? This includes a wide of possible situations such as universities, workplaces, country-specific censorship, etc. (LÖVE has a very international community including people from China, for example.)

[Karai17]

I will be thirty in a few months, but I am assume this is instead the typical Internet forum attack on my personal maturity—right?

Sure, why not.

I thought it was funny that you say this and then in the very next sentence call this a “friendly community.” I agree the community is very friendly, but your suggestion that maybe I associating with humans isn’t for me….

The community is friendly. But like any community, when someone comes in and tells us that our local culture isn't up to their standards, then THAT becomes the problem. If you need help using love, or want advice or ideas on gamin gin general, then we'd LOVE you to join us in our happy little place. If you barge in our door and tell us to shape up, then you can toss off.

I never said ban anything.

You directly implied that you'd like to see all of the libraries renamed to something that doesn't offend your sensibilities. That is what we call censorship, and we generally don't support that here. I say generally because there are always extreme cases that need to be dealt with, but for the most part, we consider ourselves a place where people can have fun without too much ridicule.

It does make them less useful, because they become un-usable in a lot of professional situations. I am not saying this as any type of personal attack but as a genuine question: of the people telling me to grow up, do you or have you worked professionally as a programmer? If so, how many situations have you been in where you would be comfortable suggesting to your team-leads, managers, etc., to use libraries with sexually-charged names? Again, serious question.

I've worked as a professional programmer, and the places I worked for didn't give a damn if some library that will never be client-facing is named something bizarre. Use the tools to get the job done, done right, and done on time. If the company you work for is so up tigh tthat it can't handle the word "hump" being written somewhere in the code, then that's just crappy corporate culture.

I’m not the only one in the thread to echo the sentiments regarding the library names.

Of the entire community to date, I think maybe, like, five people have complained about the library names? Remember, these are all third party libraries, they are not officially endorsed by the LOVE Project. The community that has risen up around LOVE is one that lights to be light hearted and playful. Maybe that community isn't for everyone, even if the engine and libraries are fantastic. There are other similar-in-scope game engines out there that you're welcome to look into if the community culture around LOVE isn't something you're comfortable associating with.

[kclanc]

It's a little bit of innuendo, God help you if you can't deal with it and feel the need to bash a community that doesn't have so many problems with it.

I'm not trying to bash the community. I'm trying to help it. LOVE is a very awesome and useful tool, and it's impressive what the LOVE developers have accomplished. However, the trend we are arguing against hampers its adoption and causes other problems as well.

Professionalism is not an arbitrary set of rules that corporations have adopted for the sake of strictness. In particular, arbitrarily introducing sexual innuendos into non-sexual situations is usually problematic, and it's not something I would recommend for non-comedians. The problem is that I am grown up. And being associated with this community could potentially cost me a job. And most importantly, there's a good reason why an employer would concerned about the innuendos floating around in this community.

[kclanc]

Of the entire community to date, I think maybe, like, five people have complained about the library names?

Part of the argument is that the library names drive people away. So those people aren't posting on the LOVE forums and aren't going to complain about it.

[Karai17]

If you try to please everyone, you'll end up pleasing no one. LOVE is a single of many game engines, with its own unique community and culture. If you can't handle innuendo, then maybe check out XNA or something where their culture might more match your personality.

As a counter to your argument, the relaxed, fun atmosphere around LOVE is what drew me, and kept me here. If LOVE forced developers to use a strict naming convention for third party products, or banned people who said less-than-professional things, then that just wouldn't be a place for me. I like it here for the exact reasons't you don't. neither of us or right, nor are we wrong, it's just differing of opinion. You're welcome to stay and enjoy the community, but telling me I should stop having my fun so you can have yours is unacceptable.

[ejmr]

The community is friendly. But like any community, when someone comes in and tells us that our local culture isn't up to their standards, then THAT becomes the problem. If you need help using love, or want advice or ideas on gamin gin general, then we'd LOVE you to join us in our happy little place. If you barge in our door and tell us to shape up, then you can toss off.

I am not ‘barging in your door’ and telling you to ‘shape up’. I am not saying the community is not up to my standards. Stop personalizing this discussion.

I am raising a concern about the names of libraries in the technical community and how they can reflect poorly upon it, and why I believe it would be in the better interest of all in the long run for that to cange.

I've worked as a professional programmer, and the places I worked for didn't give a damn if some library that will never be client-facing…

The libraries I use for games are client-facing because I have to give credit to library authors. That is a situation where the names of libraries like AnAL and Cock et alia become a problem.

Of the entire community to date, I think maybe, like, five people have complained about the library names? Remember, these are all third party libraries, they are not officially endorsed by the LOVE Project.

That is true that they are not officially endorsed, and worth repeating. But since they are on the ‘Libraries’ page of the official LÖVE wiki it might be a good idea to add a message which says that.